Two foreign oddballs: one legal, the other not so much UPDATE: I am so so wrong

"Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available" (whoistheleader2)
02/03/2020 at 11:00 • Filed to: None

I have never seen an Alfa Romeo 164, so I am quite shocked to see one for sale near me. This dealer has some good photography and a semi competent description, so it’s worth a look. This one owner future classic seems like a steal at 100k and $7,000. If only I had more than 2 cents to my name!

UPDATE: This is a low spec version sold in the US at the tail end of Alfa’s run here.

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And now, the one of dubious legality.

We never got this generation of Civic hatchback in the US. There are not many pictures and no description, but I have to assume this would get confiscated and crushed if you tried to drive it on the street. Maybe it came from Canada or Mexico on a work visa and hasn’t been tracked down yet?

UPDATE: I’m an idiot who for some reason never noticed that a separate hatch body style was sold on the SI trim level in the US. Maybe its a regional thing that these are so rare where I live.

Oh my, that interior! It’s just as tasteless I would expect!

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DISCUSSION (22)

MonkeePuzzle > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/03/2020 at 11:01

“We never got this generation of Civic hatchback in the US. “
except we did

MonkeePuzzle > MonkeePuzzle
02/03/2020 at 11:02

this is still a crime...

Kinja'd!!!

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > MonkeePuzzle
02/03/2020 at 11:09

Yeah they were quite common in Northern California in the 2000's.

I like cars: Jim Spanfeller is one ugly motherfucker > MonkeePuzzle
02/03/2020 at 11:16

hawt

PO put red foot well lights in my Golf. I kept them because they’re cool. They’re wired parallel to the walmart fog lamps.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/03/2020 at 11:17

Honestly, the Alfa is more likely to be of dubious legality as they definitely did sell that Civic here. But s good condition 164 with a stick shift in America? Hmmmmmm..... It probably is legal, but still worth double checking that all vin s match and are USA vins.

Grindintosecond > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/03/2020 at 11:22

Yeah we got that Civic. There's one a mile from my house in Colorado. They didn't last very long, Honda decided to minimise the streetracer look and introduce the Fit. Never got an R, and the SI had an RSX engine -40 hopowa. Neutered from the start.

FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/03/2020 at 11:24

That Civic hatch was indeed sold new in the US. For some reason in the 7th generation Honda gave us the worldwide 3-door hatchback body in Si trim only and then all other trims were a coupe/sedan with totally different styling for North America .

Alfa didn’t sell too many of those 164s here, but I do remember seeing them on the road fairly often in the mid-90's. Maybe it was regional popularity - I saw Merkur XR4Tis and Peugeot 405s with similar frequency. All of those pretty much disappeared because despite being quirky imports they just... weren’t really all that special . The 164 has the glorious Alfa 3.0L V6 but other than that it shares most of its components with the Saab 9000. It’s rare, looks good and has a great sounding engine... but I’m not sure they are really a future-classic even in great shape like that one is.

jimz > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/03/2020 at 11:33

the Chrysler-Jeep dealer my dad worked for sold Alfas for a short period around that time. You don’t want one.

FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/03/2020 at 11:36

Yeah I wouldn’t buy it without a Carfax... but honestly is a 164 really worth enough and interesting enough to illegally import? I think its more likely this one just lived its whole life in the South and was one of the few owned by someone who was interested in Italian cars and took care of it.

themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles > FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com
02/03/2020 at 11:46

Used, no. But new/nearly new, yes? Might’ve saved a couple Grand on your Italian sports sedan when it was new. Also could’ve been someone brought it over when they moved here or something and never made it back home . Euro importing was a big deal in the 70s/80s.

A Honda Civic is a Honda Civic.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/03/2020 at 11:56

I had a 1992 164-S. The S is worth seeking out, though they are rare as fuck nowadays. Different cams, block squirters, higher-compression, uprated cooling, active(!) suspension... The 12-valve Busso V6 is a well sorted and reliable (yes I said reliable! (as long as you ABSOLUTELY CHANGE THE TIMING BELT AND TENSIONER AT THE RECOMMENDED INTERVALS!)) engine, the trans is built like a tank, the chassis is amazingly solid (the 164 is the only vehicle without side airbags to ever score an “acceptable” side impact rating from EuroNCAP) and well rust-proofed...

Now all that being said if you get one with electrical issues it can be a nightmare, the wiring bundle from the front to back (where most of the computers are stashed) is as big around as my forearm... and while the main body may be galvanized and waxed to an extent that makes it virtually stainless, the unobtanium rear subframe assembly is *NOT*. The factory suspension alignment eats front tires for every meal of the day and devours lower a-arm bushings at an unheard of rate. Most mechanics are scared of them (really, it’s actually a quite easy car to work on, and not nearly as quirky as you’d think), Parts will often have to come from Italy (though most are readily found), and everyone will always ask you how many days it spends in the shop compared to on the road.

These are amazing cars. One of, if not absolutely the best FWD sport sedans of all time. Comfortable, fast, the engine sounds *AMAZING* and has a power band so smooth and linear and unflustered you can find yourself bumping off the revlimiter more often than not, the 5-speed is a pleasure to use, the brakes are very strong, the handling is neutral and predictable -eschewing understeer to a degree that the Fiesta ST would respect- and all the control in puts are perfectly balanced between feedback and ease of use. The steering is P orsche-like, the clutch is a bit heavy, but has loads of feel, and the ~6.5-7 second 0-60 is, frankly, not bad for something that age. Not to mention the 164 is geared to run. A non-broken 164-S is good for 150MPH any day of the week, and 160 when the weather is right.

$7000 sounds a bit steep for an L, but then again it has low miles for the age and is a manual... It does seem like these are finally on the upswing of the depreciation curve. I paid $5000 for my S with similar miles in 1999. Many of these got scrapped simply because the owners didn’t want the hassle of fixing them. Fundamentally the 164 is a very robust car, and there are some real dog beaters out there too, since they *WILL* keep soldering along with band-aid repairs. I had over 400K miles on mine when a combination of unemployment and rear subframe rust forced our seperation. It was one of the top 5 most reliable cars I ever owned, and I still miss it.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > jimz
02/03/2020 at 12:04

E xcept you do. The good ones are incredible.

JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t > FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com
02/03/2020 at 12:12

The 164 shares only a base body shell (firewall, floorpan, a-pillars, rear tub structure) with the 9000 (and Lancia Thema) the suspension is all different, including subframes and attachment points, the doors and roof are significantly different, all the running hardware is unique, and if you drive them back to back it is painfully obvious how much *BETTER* the Alfa is for it.

ranwhenparked > themanwithsauce - has as many vehicles as job titles
02/03/2020 at 13:22

The 164 was definitely sold here, and in manual form, and that one has US spec markers

ranwhenparked > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
02/03/2020 at 13:26

And, you could make the argument that after 25ish years, the only ones left on the road are the good ones

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/03/2020 at 14:44

The EP3 Civic SI hatch was sold in the USA:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_Civic_(seventh_generation) #Si

However, the EP3 was only sold until 2005 supposedly. So either the seller made a mistake in the ad, or maybe it’s at the very tail end of EP3 production.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/03/2020 at 14:48

I’ve seen a 164 in California. Definitely not a Camry.

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > FTTOHG Has Moved to https://opposite-lock.com
02/03/2020 at 15:39

It probably is a regional thing. Growing up in the suburban south in the 2000s, I never have seen a 164 and for some reason I don’t ever recall seeing a single Civic Hatch like that. I considered the possibility that it might be legal, but I just guessed wrong. I will correct.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/06/2020 at 16:12

It’s one of my recent fetishes. There’s a funny history to that platform.... and, yeah, it has a Busso!

That guy has had that one listed for $7K for a long, long time. It would have sold right away, but it’s sadly over-priced. Generally, they trade in that shape for $3-4K and they haven’t gotten much bump from Alfa coming back to North America. GTVs, OTOH, have gone nutty.

I’ve been looking for another 164S or Q, but want one late in the run. I’m doubtful that I’ll have to pay anywhere near $7K for it when I find it .

Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish
02/06/2020 at 16:19

Sadly, it seems to be a base model. It's just too weird and too slow for that price, though it is gorgeous.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Who is the Leader - 404 / Blog No Longer Available
02/06/2020 at 16:22

Yeah, mine has the tan leather interior and it is exquisite. The Dash is straight up 1980s video game in a cool, wonky way.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > JawzX2, Boost Addict. 1.6t, 2.7tt, 4.2t
02/06/2020 at 17:06

I’m very jealous, as I’d SO like to find a “Q” or late “S”. I had a line on one in Seattle... but....

This “L” for $7K? There’s a reason it’s sat for months.